<drdink> ok16:00

its time, I think :)
<Crocodile> ok16:01

let's start introducing ourself
<drdink> first, can you give us a background about yourself and how you relate to linux and xmms and stuff?

yes, that'd be good :)
<Crocodile> Im Olle Hällnäs and I have been with the project from the start..

missing a good player in Xwindows16:02
<[Peter]> I'm Peter Alm and is currently working at Volvo IT as a programmer. I've started using Linux 4 years ago and me and Mikael started the x11amp project 2 years ago because of the lack of good mp3 players for linux.
<Crocodile> Im working as an ISP webhosting and that sort of stuff16:03

we are all from the amiga days

including fatal (Thomas Nilsson) our graphics dude that can't be here tonight
<drdink> Let's start taking questions from the queue...16:04
<Questions> polaris asks: sound support under linux is very limiting with its lack of robustness and the fact you can't even play more then one sound source at once... do you see that improving soon? if so, who/what/where/when? :)
<[Peter]> We currently have esd for playing from multiple sound sources but at MHO it sucks, someone needs to write a better replacement.16:05
<Crocodile> or

oups

:P
<Questions> Dyslexic asks: what is your take on the development of the esound package? How about the possible replacement (viz)?16:06
<[Peter]> I don't like esound very much at the moment, basically the sound code sucks and the mixing is low quality

never heard of viz though
<Questions> e-t asks: Can I save the original xmms skin for use with the latest version? I don't really care for the new skin.16:07
<Crocodile> e-t: we'll put the old skin online the webpage as soon as our gfx dude (Thomas) will get home from his journey

welcome dev from 4front16:08
<dev> hello
<Questions> polaris asks: now that its called xmms, do you have plans to include video (aka quicktime, etc) support? or will it stay a strictly audio app?
<Crocodile> polaris: yes.. we will include mpeg support soon!16:09
<dev> yes we do plan to integrate mpeg1 video (probably using mpegtv engine) and add some avi/quicktime1 support
<Crocodile> :P
<Questions> e-t asks: Are we going to see some really good, and up-to-date, QuickTime support when you start releasing the video portions of XMMS?
<Crocodile> dev can answer what's planned on this one16:10
<dev> e-t: we're going to talk to apple about this...let's see
<Questions> drdink asks: have you ever played a mp3 through the old PC speaker and if so, what does it sound like?16:11
<dev> e-t: there's a bloke who's got QT4 working somewhat in open source
<drdink> :)
<Crocodile> hahhaha
<[Peter]> hohi
<dev> peter: there you are!
<[Peter]> I haven't tried it but I can asure you it would sound awful
<Crocodile> yupp

for sure
<Questions> polaris asks: will we see vqf, realaudio support, etc?16:12
<Crocodile> well.. it depends if we get any code from yamaha or not
* jam is away [autoaway after 42 minutes] (log+page)16:13
<dev> polaris: real audio - no, vqf - working with Yamaha but doesn't look too bright - they want to see money coming in from Linux users so we're going to have to see how many XMMS users are willing to cough up a few bucks for VQF support.
<Questions> DeltaZero asks: how much money would vqf support take? and then, what would the licensing terms be?16:15

CrezzyMan asks: Why does xmms 0.9 final use so much more %CPU time than 0.9beta?
<Crocodile> dev..
<drdink> yes, bad things happen when your ISP drops routes

sorry..
<[Peter]> actually it doesn't use any more CPU

it's basically top that16:16

's fucked
<dev> DeltaZero: vqf will most likely be a binary-only plugin (Intellectual Property/Royalty issues)
<Questions> DKRabbit asks: any plans to add visualization plugins to xmms?
<[Peter]> yes16:17

that's one of the next features that will come
<Questions> CrezzyMan asks: Do you have any plans for a more unique interface for xmms? (ie. non-square windows, different button positions)
<[Peter]> yes, we will try to move the GUI into plugins as well, so you could basically create loaders for all skin formats out there16:18
<Questions> e-t asks: XMMS will always be open source, right? even with funding from a split company?
<Crocodile> yupp
<front> damn isp!
<Questions> e-t asks: How soon can we expect to see video support? I'm very excited about that since the current video program available are pretty limiting and really not that good.16:19
<Crocodile> depends... maybe in the next few month
<Questions> e-t asks: Along the video lines, with the support of 4Front, will be seeing any real DVD support?
<[Peter]> dev?16:20
<front> e-t: DVD is going to be very difficult right now - we don't have dolby AC3 license, plus all other licenses for DVD support
<Questions> e-t asks: When can we expect version 1 to be out? What are the major features that you have planned before then?
<[Peter]> I don't know when but visualization plugins will be there for sure16:21
<front> e-t: you tell us what you'd like to see?
<[Peter]> and maybe GUI plugins
<Questions> mwh asks: how will the money deal about vqf releate to xmms being gpl'ed?16:22
<[Peter]> not at all

if we get VQF support all you will get is a binary plugin that you put in a directory

the rest of XMMS will always be GPL
<Questions> LoppEar asks: how can non-programmers assist the xmms project?16:23
<front> LoppEar: send in bug reports!
<Crocodile> LoppEar: write docs make skins and icons

the docs in not as good as they should be :/
<Questions> polaris asks: a binary plugin for vqf means that xmms will have a linux kernel-like loophole for binary modules?
<[Peter]> it already has16:24

all players is loaded as shared libraries
<Questions> LoppEar asks: could you explain why artists should see mp3s as a good thing?
<Crocodile> that's a tricky one :)
<front> LoppEar: MP3 is like a freight train....unstoppable now that RIAA lost its case against Diamond's RIO
<Crocodile> yupp.. why is tape good for an artist?16:25

they can also be copied :P
<Questions> polaris asks: would xmms require a totally rewrite to support video or is the infastructure already there?
<[Peter]> no

you could make a video player as a input plugin today

all that needs adding is some sort of common display routines that the plugins can use16:26
<front> LoppEar: The future is artists setting up their own radio stations - no more waiting
<Questions> polaris asks: what do you think about AOL's recent purchase of nullsoft? what impact do you think it would have on mp3s in general?
<Crocodile> AOHELL.. I dunno :)

I don't think it will maytter16:27

look at ICQ

nothing changed
<Questions> e-t asks: So how exactly is 4Front supporting XMMS?
<front> polaris: nullsoft got 80Million - do you know what that means?. Justin and nullsoft are millionaires and can do whatever the hell they want
<Crocodile> front: this one is yours
<front> e-t: we're paying Croco, Peter, Fatal money everymonth to work on XMMS.16:28
<Questions> CrezzyMan asks: Who's your favourite musician from the Amiga scene?
<front> e-t: we'll be sending them machines, OS disks soundcards, etc16:29
<[Peter]> umm
<Crocodile> the dude from TBL (The Black Lotus)16:30
<Questions> LoppEar asks: how do you see mp3s evolving in the future? particularly distribution and general acceptance?
<Crocodile> front's question
<front> LoppEar: once Sony comes out with an MP3 player, it's game over for CDs/Tapes/RIAA.16:31
<Questions> LoppEar asks: what are the biggest limitations in sound for linux right now? are you working or aware of specific people working to improve those areas?
<Crocodile> I have to go :/16:32

damn

have fun front and peter
<front> LoppEar: biggest limitation is the quality of apps - highend recording/MIDI/etc.
<[Peter]> we would need some better 3D sound support as well
<Questions> akeldama asks: how are the vis plugins coming along?
<[Peter]> nothing is started yet but basically all the hard stuff is already made in the internal vis16:33
<Questions> mwh asks: Will there be support for different video/movie formats?
<drdink> repeat..
<[Peter]> MPEG is for sure and maybe QuickTime16:34
<front> mwh: currently, only mpeg1 video, avi and Quictime1 (.mov) is planned.
<Questions> e-t asks: Does the commercial OSS from 4Front take care of the problems that we're talking about with ESD and the kernel OSS?
<[Peter]> Well, commercial OSS is a lot easier to get to work

it also performs much better in general16:35

but it doesn't solve any thing with ESD
<front> e-t: we have a virtual mixer (similar to ESD) but still needs work in quality of sound
<Questions> Cypher asks: are there plans for using XMMS to be setup/maintanance utility for mp3 stream servers?
<[Peter]> well, we're planning to do a plugin to send streams to shout/icecast

that's all thats planed at the moment16:36
<Questions> xcene^dce asks: will there be a windows port of xmms? =)
<[Peter]> no :)
<front> hehe! - surely you jest :)
<[Peter]> at least not in the close future
<Questions> LoppEar asks: why are skins such a big deal? i'm always amazed at how people say "oh, cool skin" but sound quality is not such a concern.
<front> peter?16:37
<[Peter]> ppl like eye candy, just go out and look at the average hifi equipment

loads of cool blinking stuff

but I think sound quality should have some more priority
<Questions> chris asks: Will the skins for video and audio mode (if it will be organized that way) be 'compatible' in any way?16:38
<[Peter]> the GUI will be the same in both video and audio mode

just one more window that shows the video
<Questions> mwh asks: what about dvd and vcd formats?16:39
<[Peter]> didn't we have this one before?
<front> mwh: vcd will work because we'll be using mpegtv engine
<Questions> MrMarkJ asks: Have you considered devising a format that avoids the MP3 patent, eg using wavelets instead of Fourier series?
<front> mwh: dvd is too complicated right now
<[Peter]> hmm16:40
<front> MrMarkJ: we're coders not mathematicians! :)
<Questions> jehamby asks: is anyone working on a debian package for xmms?
<drdink> there is one.
<[Peter]> yes,

Josip Rodin is the official maintainer I think16:41
<Questions> daryll asks: What made you join 4Front? How does this change your development?
<front> MrMarkJ: do you have some interesting pointers about wavelets in audio?. Wavelets work better for graphics compression (IIRC)
<MrMarkJ> Just a quick line to remind you that this is slashnet talking to the xmms creators, free discussion is in channel #forum.d and you can send your Questions with /msg Questions (no duplicates, please!)
<[Peter]> We have known dev for a while now16:42

and he offered to sponsor us so

the development will be speeded up16:43
<Questions> nd- asks: Will all the new video/misc enhancements break the WinAmp skin compatibility?
<[Peter]> no
<Questions> r0de asks: Are you going to get all the awful bugs out of XMMS before porting it to other unix's?
<front> daryll: XMMS will remain fully gpl'ed (except things that we don't write ourselves like Mpeg video/etc)
<[Peter]> it works on a lot of unices right now

Solaris works fine, AIX too16:44

FreeBSD should work also IIRC
<Questions> ovver asks: why is xmms taking up 30MB of memory?
<[Peter]> hmm?

for me it's taking up 3Mb
<front> ovver: did you d/l all the skins?16:45
<[Peter]> check your output plugin configuration and check if it has some enormous buffer or something

front: skins doesn't matter
<Questions> zal asks: seeing how most companys refuse to let their codecs go open, are you considering integrating leading edge video support as closed source/commercial plugins for xmms or something?
<[Peter]> all the fancy stuff that we license from other companies will be binary only16:46

they will never agree to have it open source
<front> zal: yes....XMMS will have certain proprietary codecs as binary only plugins (like Xanim's indeo codecs)
<Questions> talon asks: has the RIAA ever tried to contact your company?
<[Peter]> nope
<Questions> schemer asks: Is there any chance for supporting the sorenesen codec for quicktime?
<[Peter]> dev?
<front> talon: RIAA doens't bother us because XMMS is GPL'ed - so as long as no money is being made off MP3s we're safe (*fingers crossed*)16:47
<Questions> zal asks: followup: but they will be free (as in beer)?
<front> schemer: don't know but Sorenson has purchased quite a few OSS licenses from us for Solaris - so perhaps?16:48
<[Peter]> zal: some of the stuff will cost money

the companies that own the stuff want licensing money
<Questions> MrMarkJ asks: Are you tempted to apply pressure to companies to make them open source the codecs?16:49
<[Peter]> I don't think we're in any position to pressure anyone ;)
<Questions> nguyend7 asks: Will xmms be supporting Alsa output plugins?
<front> MrMarkJ: That's Mr Eric Raymond's job!. As peter says' we're small potatoes right now
<[Peter]> nguyend7: if someone converts the old one16:50

should be a 5 min job
<Questions> Dyslexic asks: seeing as how codecs take money to license...Where are you going to get the money? 4front?
<[Peter]> dev?16:51
<front> Dyslexic: we'll have to end up charging the customers for certain codecs that cost money/licensing/royalties which we then pay back to the companies that give us the codecs
<Questions> ChaosEngn asks: Do you plan on having a ripping/encoding feature. Something cddb/cdparanaioa/bladenc for example?16:52
<[Peter]> acttually yes

it will also support uploading to Diamond Rio etc
<MrMarkJ> Just a quick line to remind you that this is slashnet talking to the xmms creators, free discussion is in channel #forum.d and you can send your Questions with /msg Questions (no duplicates, please!)
<Questions> LoppEar asks: adding video, etc, do you see xmms becoming a competitor to RealPlayer and Windows MediaPlayer-type programs?16:53
<[Peter]> that's what we're planning

we still have some stuff to catch up but

who knows
<Questions> ChaosEngn asks: Any time frame on that? Do you need a coder to put in some time on the ripper mods?
<front> LoppEar: for sure we're going to make XMMS sooo cool that people will jump from Windows/Mac to Linux/Unix16:54
<[Peter]> ChaosEngn: we haven't planned it very much yet

we just gone through some basically functionality etc16:55
<Questions> slardy asks: Do you plan on creating remote connections to control xmms?
<[Peter]> we alreday hav

e

check out the xmms_remote API
<front> slardy: IRMan
<Questions> xcene^dce asks: Do you believe the music industry will be able to force through a "protected" music format that will replace mp3 totally, or mp3 here to stay forever?16:56
<[Peter]> I don't see that happening

MP3's is not here to stay forever, we need something with better quality
<front> From MP3 summit last week in San Diego, MP3 is going to rule atleast for the next 4-5 years
<Questions> zal asks: any plans for video4linux support?16:57
<[Peter]> repeat?
<front> SDMI is a still born bastard - RIP DIVX, RIP SDMI
<Questions> nguyend7 asks: Will xmms continue to be a winamp clone?
<front> zal: what would you like to see XMMS do with Video4Linux?16:58
<[Peter]> we will always support winamp skins but we're going to add some stuff that's not in winamp

video, more customizable skins etc
<drdink> TV tuner and such, i'd assume16:59
<Questions> nguyend7 asks: Why the name change?
<[Peter]> we don't want to get sued
<front> drdink: hmmmmm....interesting!?!
<[Peter]> neither by playmedia or AOL
<Questions> r0de asks: what did you guys change the name and get bought?
<[Peter]> repeat17:00
<Questions> polaris asks: you said mpeg support... video right? if so, what libraries, etc do you plan on using?
<[Peter]> MpegTV
<front> btw: AMP is a trade mark of Playmedia so anything *amp is legally an infringement
<[Peter]> or perhaps that stuff from Loki

depends on how good it gets
<Questions> slardy asks: what does xmms stand for
<[Peter]> X MultiMedia System
<Questions> digital asks: Now that you are working with 4Front, what is you opinion about ALSA and will you support it?17:01
<front> where X means cross platform and not X-Windows!
<[Peter]> we won't support it, but people are still free to write output plugins that use ALSA

if anyone makes a output plugin for alsa we will put it at the download page
<Questions> C-Warrior asks: with all the hype surrounding Linux these last months now ... is the XMMS Project keeping in mind Portabilty across other platforms as well ?? ... I am happy to see XMMS-0.9 compiling/running on my FreeBSD box now ....17:02
<[Peter]> yes

we already got Solaris, AIX and IRIX working
<Questions> drdink asks: If you plan to put commercial codecs in loadable libraries with no source, how do you plan on maknig these cross-platform?
<[Peter]> we will have to compile them for all platforms17:03

4front has the resources to do that I think

?
<front> drdink: only platforms that 4front supports will have codec support so right now no IRIX or True64 is supported by 4Front.
<Questions> schemer asks: does XMMS have CDDB support? Also, how can i get the spectrum anylizer to work when playing audio cds?17:04
<[Peter]> currently we don't have CDDB support

and you can't get the the spectrum analyzer to work with audio CDs right now
<front> schemer: cd audio goes directly to the mixer stage and doesn't go into the dsp so we have no way to find the frequencies to plot to spectrum
<[Peter]> we will add an option to either sample the data or play it digitally17:05
<Questions> P|geon asks: Does this mean the default linux logo will dissappear from the side of the skin?
<front> peter: eeek!
<[Peter]> it's already gone
<Questions> daryll asks: Have you thought about using the XFree synamic loader? It allows OS independent modules.
<front> daryll: URL pleas?17:06
<[Peter]> I never looked at it but I'll take a look at it
<Questions> Whymse asks: You guys know of any reasons/fixes for a sure lockup that occurs when looking at the menu (upper left corner)?
<[Peter]> upgrade your GTK to 1.2.2
<Questions> polaris asks: I am having problems involving xmms, skins, and gtk crashing my x-server... straces don't show anything... any tips on how to debug it?
<[Peter]> turn off the UseSaveUnders option in your wm

it's currently a bug in the SaveUnders handling in XFree17:07
<Questions> sparc asks: Does anyone think support for many more formats of sound in XMMS would blur it's focus from good mp3 support and streaming media like icecast?
<[Peter]> I don't think so

MP3s is still our main thing
<Questions> pozoc asks: when do you plan on opening the CVS server to the public?
<[Peter]> as soon as Crocodile (Olle) get's one of his lines fixed17:08
<Questions> Dyslexic asks: in upcoming versions...could you say watch a movie and listen to an mp3 at the same time, while running 1 copy of xmms? I would think that having 2 or more copies open would make them fight over the sound output...
<[Peter]> hmm

you would need two copies using esd or something
<Questions> glomph asks: So you are willing to support binary-only renderers/codecs, as Podlipec did with the Intel code in xanim? If so, then why no RealAudio? Have you approached them?
<front> or OSS Virtual Mixer (/dev/dsp2-/dev/dsp8)17:09
<[Peter]> we will support some binary-only codecs

but not Real Audio

they want LOTS of money to license the code
<Questions> Whymse asks: What is the chance that vcd support would be included with the video playing?
<front> glomph: yes, we are now talking to companies with cool audio stuff to see if they are interested in Linux/Unix/XMMS?
<[Peter]> vcd will be supported17:10
<Questions> mwh asks: Will there be a cmd line option?
<front> Whymse: VCD will come with mpeg1 viddeo support
<[Peter]> I don't think we'll see a cmd line only version

it would be too much work
<Questions> xcene^dce asks: how will the licensing for a binary-only vqf plugin be for a multi-user system? will people be able to log into one machine that has bought the vqf plugin and stream back audio via for example esound?
<[Peter]> hmm, dev?17:11
<front> something like that will be per machine - if you find a way to use it in a networked environment - more power to you but we'll just rely on our customers' trust to no abuse the license.17:12
<Questions> mwh asks: What do you guys think about xmms being available as a a lib for other programs to play multimedia stuff? The final soloution?
<[Peter]> other programs could just use our plugins
<Questions> polaris asks: other projects on the internet involving audio players, game emulators, etc have been mirred by the "warez kiddies"... why do you believe xmms hasn't suffered from that crap? :)17:13
<[Peter]> the unix folks are a bit more mature?

I don't know really
<Questions> mwh asks: are you guys planning or thought about a hardware version of xmms?
<front> polaris: what are you going to do about warez?!?. Life just goes on. But right now XMMS doesn't have any "pay-ware plugins" so there's nothing to warez! - gpl'ed apps warez'ed only chew up hard disk space17:14
<[Peter]> hmm

I know shit about hardware design so
<Questions> digital asks: <If it will be binary plugin for VQF, you will have to provide it for a lot of architectures, like Alpha, yes ?:(
<front> mwh: perhaps in the future you may see a device like RIO that has XMMS!..17:15
<[Peter]> all platforms that support OSS will have the codecs
<front> running Linux/FreeBSD/whatever
<[Peter]> as that's what we have to build the stuff on
<Questions> DKRabbit asks: whats your favorite music to listen to when coding?
<[Peter]> I like most stuff

but especially Happy Hardcore

it realy makes you happy :)17:16
<Questions> timeburn asks: Is it currenly possible, or in the works, for xmms to do gapless output? winamp did this at about 1.8, sonique already has it. I don't know of any linux player that do.
<[Peter]> I will have a look at it before 1.0 gets released
<Questions> jcs asks: what prompted you guys to use GTK for the file dialogs and switch from the old dialogs?
<[Peter]> doing everything in Xlib was a pain in the butt
<Questions> DeltaZero asks: ok, what is the suggested way for people who know C to help xmms?17:17
<[Peter]> write plugins

send in patches for bugs etc
<Questions> chris asks: You say it's game over for CDs, but aren't CDs of better quality than MP3?
<[Peter]> well I think CD is better than MP3 so I'll let Dev answer this17:18

IMHO a 256Kbit MP3 sounds like shit compared to something played on a good CD player

but for most ppl MP3 is good enough at 128Kbit17:19
<Questions> schemer asks: You might think this is crazy, but have you thought about writing the propriatary plugins in java? If a jit vm is used, it may be fast enough. and they would work on all architectures.17:20
<[Peter]> well
<front> chris: mp3s are much better - no skipping, no limitations to just 8-9 songs - cds are good but mp3s are getting better
<[Peter]> I don't know java ;)

and I don't want to rewrite all the code that we get from the companies17:21
<Questions> Epsilon asks: What's your view on the Freeamp guys? Any plans to team up?
<front> Epsilon: nope!
<Questions> polaris asks: what advantages does the GPL have over the LGPL or BSD licenses for x11amp/xmms?
<[Peter]> I don't really care much about that stuff17:22

but BSD is to open IMHO
<front> Epsoilon: But if they want to contribute then they're more than welcome
<Questions> ^o-o^ asks: Have any pornographic video's influenced your coding style? if so, which ones?
<drdink> ack
<[Peter]> hmm

no :D

maybe a swedish classic named Fäbo jäntan :D
<Questions> mwh asks: could there be made a image plugin for xmms? for jpeg, gif, png's etc. And what do you think about the idea?17:23
<[Peter]> hmm
<front> mwh: why would you do that since xv is already doing a fab job?
<[Peter]> I don't see the point of that
<Questions> Storm_ asks: But shouldn't the ruling that hardware mp3 players apply to products like xmms? The RIAA shouldn't have a leg to stand on.
<front> xmms is aimed at sound/video not still graphics
<[Peter]> dev?17:24
<front> Storm_: RIAA was not just going to stop at hardware - next would be all the software guys - Winamp, RealMpeg, (perhaps X11amp/XMMS).17:25
<Questions> polaris asks: are the versions of mpg123 in xmms kept in sync with the main mpg123 distribution or has it been sort of forked?
<[Peter]> we've added a lot of stuff to the mpg123 engine17:26
<front> peter?
<[Peter]> equalizer, spectrum analyzer + it plays a lot more broken streams
<Questions> Dyslexic asks: I am aware that there is a devel mailing list, is there a web archive of it? I would be interested in reading back messages...
<[Peter]> not at the moment
<MrMarkJ> Just a quick reminder that this is slashnet talking to the xmms creators, free discussion is in channel #forum.d and you can send your Questions with /msg Questions (no duplicates please!)17:27
<front> Dyslexic: you can still access www.x11amp.bz.nu and see the older X11amp message board
<[Peter]> yeah but not the mailing list
<Questions> mwh asks: Do you think the mp3 needs any major feature? If so which features?
<[Peter]> hmm17:28

I think MP3s does the stuff ppl want them to
<Questions> kerny asks: Do you know of any VBR mp3 encoders for Linux?
<[Peter]> Xing
<Questions> Dyslexic asks: I believe what zal was asking was, is there going to be xawtv-like functionality in xmms?
<[Peter]> not decided yet17:29

will take a look at it
<Questions> polaris asks: I noticed that there seems to be some gnome support in xmms... will xmms eventually be usable as a widget/embedable in gnome and kde?
<front> Dyslexic: we may add Video4Linux extensions later on....but for now we're only interested in mpeg video playback
<[Peter]> I'm not sure what you're getting at here but

we have a little applet that you can put in GNOME's panel17:30
<Questions> splat asks: Is the name change/redesign of your creation an effort to be recognized as a serious contender in the newly commercialized world of linux, and not merely a cheap WinAmp knock-off?
<[Peter]> partly

also we don't want to be sued by playmedia or AOL
<Questions> kerny asks: Have you seen extace (written by Raster)? It is an esound visualzation plugin...
<[Peter]> I've seen it

IIRC it's just a osciloscope17:31
<Questions> kerny asks: I've read that everyone should make VariableBitRate mp3 encodings. In your opinion do they sound that much better?
<[Peter]> they do sound better
<front> anybody from Xing on this forum?
<[Peter]> for the parts of the song that needs some higher bitrate it gets that

also it saves disk space17:32
<Questions> cr212 asks: Any ideas on getting low latency from an input plug-in to hearing the output?
<[Peter]> reduce the output plugins buffer size or use realtime mode
<Questions> C-Warrior asks: I have tried fiddling with output buffer configuration ... but for some reason XMMS seems to stutter whenever Something (either X or HDD activity) kicks in ... is this a known issue .. and if so .. is this being worked on to get corrected ?
<[Peter]> it maybe the fact your running out of bus bandwidth17:33
<front> C-Warrior: which soundcard do you have?
<[Peter]> front: it's moderated ;)

they can't talk
<Questions> polaris asks: what do you think might eventaully replace mp3 as the next big sound file format?17:34
<[Peter]> at&t's stuff is pretty impressive
<Questions> mwh asks: how many ppl do you think using xmms? in 1000's
<MrMarkJ> OK, folks, the questions Queue is closed... sorry all... we've been online for 94 mins, remember.
<[Peter]> no idea

but when we released 0.9 alpha 1

we had 50 000 downloads the first two days17:35

just counting the main site
<Questions> kerny asks: I've heard that VBR mp3s sound quite a bit better. I noticed the latest xmms shows the changing bit rate. Well done. Your thoughts on VBR mp3s?
<[Peter]> they're nice

they are both smaller and sounds better
<Questions> mwh asks: Do any of you compose music?17:36
<[Peter]> not me at least
<front> mwh: nope! :(
<Questions> splat asks: Have there every been any issues with the Winamp folks on x11amp/xmms as a whole? Have they ever cried foul for intellectual property violations or the such?
<[Peter]> they wanted us to sign some stuff for using the skin

but we refused
<front> winamp skins are like a de-facto standard now.17:37
<Questions> e-t asks: Iis the gnome and/or windowmaker dock thing skinnable? If so, has anyone done any yet?
<[Peter]> not at the moment but we're planning on having it skinned
<drdink> Well, we've hit the end of the question queue...17:38

If our guests would like, they can stay for an unmoderated question period

otherwise we've hit the end...
<[Peter]> I can stay a while
<front> mee too!
<drdink> May anarchy begin.
<front> hehe
<C-Warrior> ;-)))
<MrMarkJ> There should be a linux.com forum in mid-July... watch the news for details17:39
<mwh> l8r .. I have to go toying with my xmms .. oh imaging dvd output :)
<ywwg> Is there any chance the skins format will be extended a la gqmpeg?
<digital> front: Why don't you support Digital Unix?
<MrMarkJ> Are we still logging?
<P|geon> Bye Bye Everyone
<drdink> MrMarkJ: yeah
<[Peter]> ywwg: yes, we will have those stuff in plugins
<C-Warrior> front: the stutter under the exact same circomstances does not happen while using just plain mpg123 to play the sounds ... (I have vu-meter stuff disabled on default with XMMS btw)
<ywwg> coolnes

s
<DeltaZero> how do you play cd's in xmms?

anyone? :)
<[Peter]> put a audio cd in the drive17:40
<e-t> THANKS XMMS TEAM! I gotta run, but I loved the chat!
<C-Warrior> front: at least not as often ;-)
<[Peter]> go to /mnt/cdrom
<front> digital: there have been exactly 10 people asking for DUnix+OSS - just not the kind of customer base we can support - HPUX taught us a lesson
<DeltaZero> ok thanks
<ywwg> is there a fix for letting cd's play over a track break without pausing?
<[Peter]> in the file selector
<timeburn> what if your cd's don't mount?
<[Peter]> you don't mount them

it finds them anyway
<ywwg> cddb support?
<[Peter]> not at the moment
<front> peter: we should consider this seriously!17:41
<[Peter]> I know

but that licensing stuff they have now

ewww
<DeltaZero> hmmm
<front> is there a GPL'ed CDDB?
<DeltaZero> you guys seen grip?
<polaris> [Peter]: thanks for the UseSaveUnders tip... the x-server crashing made me afraid to upgrade from 0.9beta1 :)
<ainsoph> front : yes there is
<zal> well, cddb got that annyoing license of late dosent it
<kerny> What is the best VBR encoder (any platform) as regards to quality?
<digital> front: Do you support Alpha Linux then?
<DeltaZero> it gets its info from freedb.freedb.org
<[Peter]> polaris: np
<MrMarkJ> freecddb.freecddb.org
<[Peter]> it's the shaped skin support that does it17:42
<ywwg> oh, and does anyone else have problems with xmms crashing windowmaker when attempting to move it to a new desktop?
<[Peter]> kerny: Xing I think
<DeltaZero> hmmmm
<[Peter]> maybe LAME supports them as well
<ainsoph> speaking of crashing: is there anyway to get xmms to work without crashing? (I know thats a loaded question.. but it has *never* worked for me)
<zal> is there a VBR encoder for linux yet?17:43
<ObTheRat> quit
<front> digital: yes, alphalinux is supported, but we're having all sorts of problems with the newer alphas, we only have a lousy cabriolet and without having the mahcines to test on it's impossible to support all versions of ALpha
<DeltaZero> when i hit "ok" in the file selector on /cdrom it just opens the folder

nothing else
<polaris> ainsoph: strace it and see what libraries it tries to use
<C-Warrior> ywwg: Works perfectly here
<ywwg> hmmm
<polaris> if you have multiple versions of libraries around it might be the cause
<qazix> LAME (http://www.sulaco.org/mp3) v3.11 does support VBR - I've no idea how the quality is though.
<[Peter]> DeltaZero: open preferences, select CD Audio Player and hit configure
<DeltaZero> ok
<[Peter]> and change the directory to /cdrom
<_bryan_> sorry if this has been asked before, but are there any plans to add support for GLX vis plugins now that accelerated drivers are availible for more and more cards and Xfree86 4 is on the horizon?17:44
<C-Warrior> btw ... is it me or is the default skin slightly fucked up in the shade right above the timer ?
<DeltaZero> woah

that's cool :)
<kerny> Does anyone know how LAME compares to Xing?
<[Peter]> _bryan_: yes
* DeltaZero might att freedb support if you guys don't get to it first
<DeltaZero> add
<ywwg> nope, crashing wm. sigh.
<_bryan_> because geiss is wicked cool :)17:45
<[Peter]> ywwg: what version of window maker?
<kerny> Is the Xing encoder for Linux out yet?
<C-Warrior> ywwg: no crashing here on Window Maker-0.60.0
<[Peter]> yes
<_vertigo> kerny: yeah
<cr212> libcdaudio does cddb lookups, and is GPL'd.
<_vertigo> kerny: works very well i might add =)
<qazix> kerny: Try it yourself, there's also a nice sound spectro-thing called mp3x.
<ywwg> .60.0, compiled my own
<kerny> Is Xing Linux gui or cmdline?
<_bryan_> thanks a lot guys, have a good one
<C-Warrior> ywwg: same here ... no problem
<front> cr212: I think if we add cddb we gotta put the company's name on the player
<_vertigo> kerny: cmd line
<polaris> ywwg: turn off UseSaveUnders... thats what fixed my prob
<MrMarkJ> Hey everyone, can you tell us how you heard about the forum? /msg votebot help
<ywwg> If I minimize it, and then go to a new desktop, and then click "unhide here," it goes boom. xmms is fine, but wm dies17:46

where is UseSaveUnders

?
<C-Warrior> ywwg: WPrefs ... Last Panel
<ywwg> k

it's not on :(
<MrMarkJ> ah, although you need to be regged with nickserv to vote...17:47

that wasn't clever, was it

wait 5secs
<[Peter]> ywwg: might be your X server that is broken then
<C-Warrior> ywwg: doing a minimize and unhide here on other workspace Indeed produces a crash here as well now
<ywwg> aha!17:48
<polaris> ywwg: what vid card?
<ywwg> tnt
<polaris> ywwg: use the x-server from nvidia
<C-Warrior> ywwg: though using CTRL-ESC and say "move to workspace x" doesn't crash
<ywwg> I never could use precompiled gnome, there is something weird with my libraries.

I am using the nvidia drivers.
<C-Warrior> ywwg: minimize followed by unhide here DOES crash
<polaris> the x-servers from nvidia are more stable then the ones from xfree17:49
<C-Warrior> ywwg: I don't think it's an XServer issue ...
<ywwg> You're right, ctrl-esc works
<VoteBot> Hello. /msg VoteBot help for details
<ywwg> Sounds like a gnome problem then
<MrMarkJ> right... *now* can you vote?
<ywwg> vote on what?
<C-Warrior> ywwg: I am not Using Gnome
<ywwg> h

hm
<C-Warrior> ywwg: i don't even have the stuff on my system
<MrMarkJ> how you heard about the forum

sorry about the earlier cockup17:50
<digital> ywwg: Do X or window manager crash?
<C-Warrior> digital: Window Maker pops up it's "Crash Panel"
<ywwg> windowmanager. windowmaker gives me the option to restart, and it does so cleanly

no programs crash except wm
<MrMarkJ> ywwg, soz did you say you'd switched off UseSaveUnders?
<C-Warrior> ywwg: I'll try to create a core dump ... and see what I can come up with17:51
<ywwg> meaning the check box is unchecked? yes.
<C-Warrior> MrMarkJ: I am not using SaveUnders myself either .. and I experience the same crashbug now
<MrMarkJ> ywwg, coo...

ywwg, and it works in other window managers?
<C-Warrior> give me a few minutes

MrMarkJ: it seems to be (for now) a bug in Window Maker ... untill I can have had a lok at the Core Dump17:52

brb
<MrMarkJ> people, you do /msg votebot vote for <how-you-heard-about-it>
<ywwg> I don't "do" other wm's :)
<C-Warrior> heheheh ywwg !!!
<MrMarkJ> ywwg, but icewm is the one true wm ;)
<ainsoph> so, anyone have any luck using esd and xmms?
<C-Warrior> Window Maker ALL the Way BABY
<ywwg> blah blah blah. Gnome/WM all the way
<C-Warrior> Pure WM
<ainsoph> or is that a known issue (I don't know about?)
<C-Warrior> Ok ... gonna crash WM now
<Rahga> E
<ywwg> hehe
<cr212> ainsoph: Works fine here.17:53
<Epsilon> MrMarkJ: a14. dead?
<MrMarkJ> Epsilon: of course.
<cr212> (Though I hack mine to change the volume in software before sending it to esd)
<digital> no, I could not compile xmms with esd.
<Epsilon> MrMarkJ:of course?
<digital> had to disable it
<[Peter]> digital: what errors did you get?17:54
<MrMarkJ> Epsilon: It was installed by WWS, remember
<ywwg> anyone have the happy hacker keyboard? now only 70$!
<MrMarkJ> suprax ... ah, irc.t.o?
<C-Warrior> ok ... have a core dump now .. gonna have a look at it
<ywwg> ooooo
<suprax> MrMarkJ: Yes, hello.
<Epsilon> MrMarkJ: point.17:55
<MrMarkJ> suprax, t.o in my bad books ;)
<suprax> MrMarkJ: why's that?
<Epsilon> s/S/poison/;
<C-Warrior> ywwg: Looks like it's a bug in Window Maker
<suprax> ywwg: isn't the new UNIX one like 200 bucks?
<C-Warrior> I can give a small part of the backtrace .. in case anyone is interested ?17:56
<ywwg> you can get a ps/2-only versiobn

go for it!
<suprax> I know
<C-Warrior> anyone ?
<ywwg> the other one is 139
<[Peter]> C-Warrior: I'm interested
<C-Warrior> #0 0x807c18c in wWindowChangeWorkspace (wwin=0x8167700, workspace=1)17:57

at window.c:1801

1801 XMapWindow(dpy, wwin->icon->core->window);

(gdb) bt

#0 0x807c18c in wWindowChangeWorkspace (wwin=0x8167700, workspace=1)

at window.c:1801

#1 0x804ee49 in unhideWindow (icon=0x8149fc0, icon_x=896, icon_y=704,

wwin=0x8167700, animate=1, bringToCurrentWS=1) at actions.c:1429
<ywwg> it might be the animate code...
<digital> [Peter]: Output/esd/audio.c 137 line
<C-Warrior> ywwg: looks like it ...
<ywwg> i think you can turn that off, let me try
<[Peter]> digital: what version of esd?17:58
<C-Warrior> ywwg: I'll save the coredump ... and report this issue to either Alfredo, Dan, Matt or ]d
<ywwg> nope. even with iconification animation off it crashes
<digital> [Peter]: 0.2.1217:59
<[Peter]> that's weird
<ywwg> well, gotta go, thanks for the help
<C-Warrior> ywwg: it only seems to happen on the XMMS window though
<kRiS> hey everyone
<[Peter]> perhaps you have some old esd.h lying somewhere?
<kRiS> ok im feeling ignored
<[Peter]> hey kRiS :)18:00
<kRiS> thanks...hi peter
<digital> [Peter]: OK, I'ii look at it
<ainsoph> brb
<[Peter]> because that line is just a variable declaration
<kRiS> so age/gender in here?
<[Peter]> and that struct got added in 0.2.8 or something
<digital> [Peter]: Yes, there is in /usr/local/include, thank you18:01
<kRiS> screw it.........
<[Peter]> hahaha
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: I have no idea what is causing this crash .... I can do the exact same thing with this Epic window ... and it all works just fine ...18:02

[Peter]: but as soon as I do a minimize ... and unhide here on a different workspace ... Window Maker crashes
<[Peter]> hmm

it might not like the fact that the window is shaped

might be it18:03

try to do it with xeyes
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: xeyes is just peachy ... no problem at all
<[Peter]> weird
<ainsoph> Peter: under RH6.0 and Gnome/E, both a friend of mine and I have never been able to get XMMS to not crash? I cannot kill the XMMS process once she goes, and I can only do so by killing ESD and ideas?18:04

and==any
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: the only thing I can think of that Might be a problem is the fact that XMMS has titlebars and stuff disabled ... and I can't save any changes to that for now .. because of a stupid bug in 0.60.0
<[Peter]> ainsoph: hmm18:05
<bd> c-warrior: sure you can..
<[Peter]> ainsoph: when does it crash, when you start it, when you press play etc?
<C-Warrior> bd: I just tried to ... and didn't seem to work .. Even WITH manually selection a radio buttons
<bd> C-Warrior: go to window specification first..

C-Warrior: hmm
<C-Warrior> bd: which one should I select ?

bd: the top one right ?18:06
<bd> C-Warrior: the first one generally
<C-Warrior> bd: Doesn't save

the next time I start ... it's all "titlebar stuff etc ... Disabled"
<hawky> the xmms display is messed up for me, the bar that is supposed to scroll across, dosn't and the time doesn't change, if I click on things it will time will start flashing diferent things, and the sdcrolling bar flashes from the back and forth from end to end, all while playing a song normally, this wasn't a problem with x11ampbeta1.118:08
<skicker> hawky: that used to happen with me when using the really early ESD plugin
<hawky> I am using esd also, doesn't the plugin come with the source though?18:09
<bd> C-Warrior: that is because xmms tells it not to use that stuff..

C-Warrior: try it with a different app
<C-Warrior> bd: Only XMMS is causing this Crash on Window Maker though18:10
<hawky> I am d/ling 0.9.1 now, hopefully it will be happier :)
<bd> C-Warrior: did you try replicating those same settings in another shaped app?18:11
<skicker> the ESD plugin in the latest version doesnt work properly on mine, it keeps skipping a second sometimes as it plays
<C-Warrior> bd: never mind ....
<bd> C-Warrior: i got it to do it with other shaped apps18:12
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: when enabling the titlebar, resizebar, close and exit buttons ... I am not experiencing any crashes on Window Maker
* phazer is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: so the error has to be Somewhere in there
<[Peter]> C-Warrior: must be a bug in Window Makers handling of no decoration windows then
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: i'll file a bugreport with Alfredo, Dan, Matt or ]d18:13

i guess right now Dan will be my best option
<skicker> has anyone remade the ESD 0.1version plugin for xmms? thats the only one that works right on mine, but the x11amp version doesnt work with xmms (I guess cos the function names have changed)18:14
<MrMarkJ> anyone still here, can you /msg votebot vote for <how you heard about the forum>
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: Hmmmmmmm ... it's getting even more weird
<[Peter]> C-Warrior: ?

skicker: tried 0.9.1?
<C-Warrior> [Peter]: when i manually DISABLE all this stuff on a wterm ... and do the exact same thing that crashes WM with XMSS ... everytyhing is just peachy18:15
<skicker> [Peter]:yes, the same thing with the 1 second skips
<bd> C-Warrior: it is limitted to shaped apps from what i can tell
<tile> there's a bug when doing shoutcast.. sometimes it gets the kbps of the stream wrong and if you try to stop it it freezes.. if you select another stream from the playlist while it's doing this it freezes everything and you have to kill it from the console
<[Peter]> tile: upgrade18:16
<C-Warrior> bd: it definately looks like it ... i am gonna try with Xeyes once more .. this time I'll disable window decorations
<tile> [Peter]: 0.9.1?
<[Peter]> yepp
<tile> k
<bd> C-Warrior: i can replicate it in any shaped app
<Loren__> I hate to ask a Q that's already been asked, but as far as sound output goes, are there any advantages to XMMS over mpg123, and how does it stack up in the dept. or CPU load?
<C-Warrior> bd: using xeyes ... manually disabled ALL window decorations ... the exact same thing that causes xmms to crash WM ... doesn't happen18:17

this is really starting to get weird18:18
<polaris> heh. xmms uses less then 1% of my cpu according to ps
<bd> C-Warrior: is xeyes really a shaped app though

C-Warrior: try gqmpeg, freeamp, or whatnot
<C-Warrior> bd: Well .. if Xeyes isn't ... you can tell me what IS

freeamp is Linux only ... so don't go there ;-))
<polaris> although it seems to use more then previous versions... hmm
<sogg> is there a freeamp plugin for xmms yet?
<Loren__> C-Warrior: what about freeamp is linux-only?18:19
<tile> Loren__: it USES mpg123
<C-Warrior> Loren__: FreeAMP's "Unix"

Loren__: FreeAMP's "Unix" versions ...a re restricted to Linux only

Loren__: it doesn't even Compile on my FreeBSD system e.g.18:20
* Loren__ is confused... Linux != Un*x
<C-Warrior> Loren__: that's why I put it between Quotes
<Epsilon> C-Warrior: no it's not.

freeamp runs on solaris for a start

and various other 'proper' Unixs18:21
<Loren__> C-Warrior: no... I mean _WHY_ doesn't freeamp run under "stock" Un*x..???
<Epsilon> Loren__ it does.
<C-Warrior> Epsilon: wqell .. why does their Webpage only mention Linux and Win98

I tried to compile it Several times on my FreeBSD box .. and it bombs out in the middle of the compile18:22
<Epsilon> dunno. I'm on the development mailing lists and it's certainly working, so if it's not out now, it will be v soon
<Loren__> C-Warrior: Did you look at the code? or just let it be?
<hawky> yeah 0.9.1 still doesn't update the screen properly
<C-Warrior> Loren__: Way too much stuff like #include <linux/.....h>18:23
<Epsilon> hmmm

that should only be in the os specific code.
<C-Warrior> Loren__: it was a complete mess the last time I tried it